Zainab bint YounusThere Is No Patriarchy in Jannah
NOW, LET’S GET to the crux of the issue – if men get hûr as their ‘something special’ in Jannah, what is there for women that’s of equal standing? Why, again, are women not promised male hûrs?
It should be noted that the following are a personal reflection on the discussion regarding the Ḥûr Al-ʿÎn in view of the relative silence regarding women’s specific rewards in Jannah.
To understand the answer to this question a little better, it’s necessary to pause for a moment and think about the purpose of Jannah itself. Jannah exists as the ultimate form of reward to the believers who spent their entire lives doing what Allah commanded them to, and restraining themselves from what they were prohibited from doing.
In Jannah, there are no longer any prohibitions – what is evil and detrimental to humans will already be completely removed, and everything else will be available in its most pure form and will not cause any kind of harm whatsoever. For example, there will be rivers of wine flowing in abundance in Jannah – yet it will never cause any kind of headaches or hangovers with painful consequences.[1]
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Click here to supportWhat is interesting to note is also that there is a running theme in the Quran and Sunnah that informs us that the more difficult something is to do (or not do) for the sake of Allah, the greater the reward is for that action. The Prophet ﷺ said:
Whosoever leaves something for the sake of Allah, then Allah the Mighty and Magnificent, will replace it with something better than it. (Aḥmad)
Allah is the Most Just, and in the Hereafter –as in this world– He knows that justice means treating people according to their own standards, not that of others. Men and women are intrinsically different in certain specific physiological ways, and the Sharîʿah reflects this, while also recognizing the majority of ways in which men and women are in fact equal and alike.
Similarly, in Jannah the vast majority of rewards are the same for men and women – they will have access to a limitless array of sights, smells, tastes, property, and so many other experiences. Yet there will also be certain specific differences that apply to each gender, based on the differences that apply to the genders in this world.
Almost all men will say that one of the most difficult things for them to control and restrain themselves from in this world is the fulfillment of sexual desire. Islam has rigid expectations of believers – that they lower their gazes from the opposite gender, that they do not come near to any kind of interaction (physical or otherwise) that will lead to zina (sexual relationships outside of marriage). While polygyny was made permissible to Muslim men, in part to provide a ḥalâl option for those men who find it difficult to be satisfied with only one spouse, even polygyny comes with heavy responsibilities and specific conditions. The Prophet ﷺ told us,
I am not leaving behind me any tribulation that is more harmful to men than women. (Ibn Mâjah)
It can thus be seen that the Hûr Al-ʿÎn in Jannah are a reward for those men who kept themselves chaste in the dunya despite the severe difficulty of doing so. But if that’s the case for men, then what is the equivalent fitna in this world for women, and what is the equivalent reward?
There is perhaps no greater trial, tribulation, or difficulty for women in this world than the oppression of men and their authority over women.
Muslim or non-Muslim, whether in the past or the present (and more than likely, in the future as well), women have borne their greatest pain due to men. Whether from within their own homes or from complete strangers[2], women face high rates of assault and abuse from men[3]; women are raped in times (and places) of peace as well as conflict[4]; women suffer from lack of access to healthcare[5], education[6], and finances[7]. The vast majority of the time, these injustices are inflicted as a result of power systems which have been set up by the male gender and which benefit them primarily.
Oppression aside, the authority of men over women is in and of itself a fitna for women. While we do not deny at all that Allah granted qawâma to men, it doesn’t mean that it is something easy to live with. Keeping in mind that many scholars apply qawâma to such a degree that a woman may not leave the house, visit her family, or even cut her hair without her husband’s permission, it isn’t difficult to acknowledge that Muslim women find this aspect of the Dîn most challenging to uphold. Even unmarried women are considered beholden to their fathers (or other immediate male relatives in the absence of a father or husband) as their ‘guardians’ who wield authority over certain aspects of their lives.
Muslim women know that we are equal human beings to men in the Sight of Allah; our gender does not make us inferior or less intelligent (regardless of how many people try to misinterpret the ḥadîth). Nonetheless, we recognize that within the Sharîʿah is a system that gives men certain privileges that we do not have – whether it be the status of qawâma, imâma, or nubûwwa, or even the right to polygamy – and yet we choose to accept, to submit to, and to obey the command of Allah, solely because we recognize that He is the One Who sent down these laws, and we seek His Pleasure and His Pleasure alone.
However, it is still the reality that we are obliged to obey – to some degree – the decisions of fellow human beings, who are as flawed and weak as we are ourselves. To know that regardless of how pious, righteous, intelligent, wealthy, or what our social status is, that we are subject to the final choices of a man, is something which strikes at women deeply at both an emotional and intellectual level. It is a test from Allah which tests our mettle and our faith on a daily basis, especially if one has a spouse who does not have the same level of respect towards his wife as he expects from her – or if he happens to be lacking in justice, consideration, compassion, or an overall mentality of fairness.
Though some may argue that the position of a woman with her husband is like that of a parent with a child, it is actually insulting to present it as such. The parent-child relationship is entirely different; as children, we spend our entire lives with our parents, being raised by and cared for by them, we experience unconditional love (for the most part), and when we are disciplined by them, we have an understanding that it does not diminish their love for us, nor does it reduce our respect for them.
In the case of a spousal relationship, however, it is very different – we go into a marriage viewing ourselves both as adults, as spiritual and intellectual equals, exchanging mutual respect and compassion for each other. For the man to be able to claim a position wherein he can – theoretically – command or prohibit certain things, even if they are Islamically permissible, creates a power imbalance which may or may not be abused. And the sad reality is that for many people, that position of qawâma is abused. Allah Himself has told us:
O you who have believed, surely among your spouses and your children there is an enemy to you… [Sûrat Al-Taghâbun, 64:14]
While women being fitna towards men is often discussed, it is not often that we hear this âyah being explained as husbands being a fitna for their wives. Yet the truth is that many Muslim women feel tested in their îmân due to their marital situations. The power and authority which Muslim men yield over women – whether in the context of family or general community – is considerable, and abuse of that position has led many Muslim women to deal with many serious repercussions.
Considering how much women struggle because of the patriarchy – whether societally imposed or based upon certain religious rulings – it makes sense that perhaps the greatest reward that women will experience in Jannah is complete freedom from it.
The purpose of Jannah is reward and freedom from all obligations, responsibilities and duties; in Paradise, we are beholden to no other human beings, and there is no difference between the rulers of this world and their subjects, other than their reward in accordance to their taqwa and their deeds. While it is true that certain individuals, such as the Prophet ﷺ and the other prophets, will be superior to others in terms of their reward and their position in Jannah, this does not mean that anyone will be in a position of authority over anyone else. There is no evidence whatsoever to say that men, as a whole, will be considered superior to or receive a greater reward in comparison to women as a whole. Again, the only difference between people will be based upon their righteousness and their deeds in this world.
What greater reward and freedom can there be for Muslim women than to be completely and utterly liberated from being under the authority of men in any way, shape, or form?
While there are those who no doubt would wish to argue this point, it can be said that the existence of the Ḥûr Al-ʿÎn in and of itself is a proof that the human women of Jannah will be free from any obligation to men – for while we are expected to be sexually available for our husbands in this world, there is no such requirement in Jannah. Why else would there be so many Ḥûr allotted to each man, if not to fulfill his carnal desires while the human women experience a release from the obligation?
Too Wonderful for Words
It should again be noted that the above is merely one individual’s thoughts on the discussion regarding the Ḥûr Al-ʿÎn in view of the relative silence regarding women’s specific rewards in Jannah.
Another way to think about the lack of detail in the Quran and Sunnah regarding women’s rewards in Jannah is to consider the fact that scholars have noted that the greatest of Allah’s rewards in Jannah is deliberately left undescribed.
Patience, like fasting, is a deed for which Allah will not measure any fixed reward, the latter being considered a significant part of the former. Imam Ibn Al-ʿArabi said:
Our Lord, may He be Blessed and exalted, has told us that the reward for righteous deeds may be multiplied by a factor between one and seven hundred, but He has withheld from us knowledge of the amount of the reward for patience and has kept knowledge thereof to Himself. Only those who are patient shall receive their rewards in full, without reckoning. [Sûrat Al-Zumar, 39:10] (Aḥkâm Al-Qur’ân (4/77)[8]
No doubt, patience encompasses numerous situations and circumstances, from patience with individuals to patience with difficult life circumstances. Women, who are accustomed to being told “Have patience, sister!” in response to any appeal for assistance, are perhaps most acquainted with the reality of patience on a daily basis.
It is this, then, which may well be the key to that question which so many women wonder about – why aren’t women told what their specific rewards are? It is because we have such patience with the patriarchy and its associated fitna that the reward for it is of such high measure, to be tailored to each woman when she enters Jannah, that there are simply no words to describe its vastness.
In the end, it can be said that the rewards Allah has in store for those of us who enter Jannah is far greater than anything we can conceptualize for ourselves. As always, it must be understood that Allah is the Most Just and will never withhold from us that which He promised – an eternity of unbridled joy and pleasures without end, of freedom from all the pain and discomfort that we ever experienced in this world.
And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer – those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed. [Sûrat Al-Nisâ’, 4:124]
And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, “This is what we were provided with before.” And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally. [Sûrat Al-Baqarah, 2:25]
———————
[1] Surah Saffât, 37:45-47
[2] http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
[3] http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs239/en/
[4] http://www.wonderslist.com/10-countries-highest-rape-crime/
[5] http://www.who.int/gender/women_health_report/full_report_20091104_en.pdf
[6] http://en.unesco.org/gem-report/sites/gem-report/files/girls-factsheet-en.pdf
[7] http://time.com/2026/11-surprising-facts-about-women-and-poverty-from-the-shriver-report/
[8] https://islamqa.info/en/221201
Originally posted 2016-05-26 09:58:28.
204 Comments
Jodi Wilson
May 26, 2016 - 10:14 amThe only thing I don’t understand is why sex for women is always viewed as an obligation….it hints that it doesn’t quite matter if she enjoys it or not. It makes it sound like women dislike it so much it would be a “release” for them in Jannah while men get so many hoor al ayn, because we’re assuming men are more sexual which isn’t necessarily true.
Jodi Wilson
May 26, 2016 - 10:14 amThe only thing I don’t understand is why sex for women is always viewed as an obligation….it hints that it doesn’t quite matter if she enjoys it or not. It makes it sound like women dislike it so much it would be a “release” for them in Jannah while men get so many hoor al ayn, because we’re assuming men are more sexual which isn’t necessarily true.
Nabeela Paleker
May 26, 2016 - 3:03 pmAlso if women wanted male hoor, they could get it. ?
Nabeela Paleker
May 26, 2016 - 3:03 pmAlso if women wanted male hoor, they could get it. ?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 3:40 pmNabeela Paleker I have heard that too, is that true?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 3:40 pm“To be perfectly honest, traditional Islamic scholarship *does* consider it a woman’s obligation to be “available” for sex, without paying much attention to whether she’s actually into it or not” – I have a problem with this. Is this challenged by female or contemporary scholars?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:12 pmCan you name a few for me so that I can read more about this specific subject?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:13 pmWhat do you think accounts for why traditional Islamic scholarship is so backward on this subject? Is it partially attributable to patriarchy and deliberate erasure of female voices?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:14 pmAnd is the obligatory nature of sex applicable to both men and women in traditional scholarship?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:05 pmMust read on the topic is Kecia Ali’s Sexual Ethics in Islam
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:11 pmTraditional Islamic scholarship rooted in patriarchy is plain wrong on this one IMO. Although this aspect of traditional scholarship is often deemphasized but honestly a lot of confusing things suddenly make sense once one reads about the traditional Islamic conception of marriage. Modern rationalizations of certain concepts sugar coat the really patriarchal assumptions built into them. Kecia Ali’s book is seriously eye opening. I hadn’t even heard of many of the concepts and their origins much less encountered a critique.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:15 pmBtw, that aspect of traditional scholarship is also the reason some Muslim countries have trouble enacting marital rape laws. This has come up in Pakistan recently with regard to a new domestic abuse bill which is quite expansive and mandates a lot of infrastructure for women seeking help. But doesn’t cover marital raoe explicitly. A panel discussion with the folks drafting the bill and religious advisory council representatives etc revealed that traditional fiqh not recognizing marital rape is a barrier to including that explicitly in the domestic abuse bill which even covers psychological abuse.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:10 pmThat just isn’t acceptable and calls for more scholars to challenge this continuously and consistently until the original idea is abolished or rendered irrelevant today.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:10 pmThat just isn’t acceptable and calls for more scholars to challenge this continuously and consistently until the original idea is abolished or rendered irrelevant today.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:11 pmThanks for the recommendations. I will look into this further.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:11 pmThanks for the recommendations. I will look into this further.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:14 pm^related is the modeling of traditional marriage contracts on slave sale contracts which Kecia Ali also talks about. She proposes the need to start over. IIRC she says if we have to pick a financial contract as a model, a joint business partnership contract would be an option.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:14 pm^related is the modeling of traditional marriage contracts on slave sale contracts which Kecia Ali also talks about. She proposes the need to start over. IIRC she says if we have to pick a financial contract as a model, a joint business partnership contract would be an option.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmAs a lawyer, I’m also working on similar ideas.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmAs a lawyer, I’m also working on similar ideas.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmThis is all great to know!
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmThis is all great to know!
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:19 pmKARAMAH is doing great work on marriage contracts. They have a September training for attorneys if she is interested. I’ll post on my page when it’s up!
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:19 pmKARAMAH is doing great work on marriage contracts. They have a September training for attorneys if she is interested. I’ll post on my page when it’s up!
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:21 pm^who?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:21 pm^who?
Shehnaz Zindabad
May 27, 2016 - 10:41 pmDon’t worry, girls: if you don’t want your hubby to have hoors, he won’t have them; and if you want me hoors, you will – let no one tell you what YOUR heaven, which by definition will be perfect for you, will be like.
Jodi Wilson
May 26, 2016 - 10:14 amThe only thing I don’t understand is why sex for women is always viewed as an obligation….it hints that it doesn’t quite matter if she enjoys it or not. It makes it sound like women dislike it so much it would be a “release” for them in Jannah while men get so many hoor al ayn, because we’re assuming men are more sexual which isn’t necessarily true.
Nabeela Paleker
May 26, 2016 - 3:03 pmAlso if women wanted male hoor, they could get it. ?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 3:40 pmNabeela Paleker I have heard that too, is that true?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 3:40 pm“To be perfectly honest, traditional Islamic scholarship *does* consider it a woman’s obligation to be “available” for sex, without paying much attention to whether she’s actually into it or not” – I have a problem with this. Is this challenged by female or contemporary scholars?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:12 pmCan you name a few for me so that I can read more about this specific subject?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:13 pmWhat do you think accounts for why traditional Islamic scholarship is so backward on this subject? Is it partially attributable to patriarchy and deliberate erasure of female voices?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:14 pmAnd is the obligatory nature of sex applicable to both men and women in traditional scholarship?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:05 pmMust read on the topic is Kecia Ali’s Sexual Ethics in Islam
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:11 pmTraditional Islamic scholarship rooted in patriarchy is plain wrong on this one IMO. Although this aspect of traditional scholarship is often deemphasized but honestly a lot of confusing things suddenly make sense once one reads about the traditional Islamic conception of marriage. Modern rationalizations of certain concepts sugar coat the really patriarchal assumptions built into them. Kecia Ali’s book is seriously eye opening. I hadn’t even heard of many of the concepts and their origins much less encountered a critique.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:15 pmBtw, that aspect of traditional scholarship is also the reason some Muslim countries have trouble enacting marital rape laws. This has come up in Pakistan recently with regard to a new domestic abuse bill which is quite expansive and mandates a lot of infrastructure for women seeking help. But doesn’t cover marital raoe explicitly. A panel discussion with the folks drafting the bill and religious advisory council representatives etc revealed that traditional fiqh not recognizing marital rape is a barrier to including that explicitly in the domestic abuse bill which even covers psychological abuse.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:10 pmThat just isn’t acceptable and calls for more scholars to challenge this continuously and consistently until the original idea is abolished or rendered irrelevant today.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:11 pmThanks for the recommendations. I will look into this further.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:14 pm^related is the modeling of traditional marriage contracts on slave sale contracts which Kecia Ali also talks about. She proposes the need to start over. IIRC she says if we have to pick a financial contract as a model, a joint business partnership contract would be an option.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmAs a lawyer, I’m also working on similar ideas.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmThis is all great to know!
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:19 pmKARAMAH is doing great work on marriage contracts. They have a September training for attorneys if she is interested. I’ll post on my page when it’s up!
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:21 pm^who?
Shehnaz Zindabad
May 27, 2016 - 10:41 pmDon’t worry, girls: if you don’t want your hubby to have hoors, he won’t have them; and if you want me hoors, you will – let no one tell you what YOUR heaven, which by definition will be perfect for you, will be like.
Jodi Wilson
May 26, 2016 - 10:14 amThe only thing I don’t understand is why sex for women is always viewed as an obligation….it hints that it doesn’t quite matter if she enjoys it or not. It makes it sound like women dislike it so much it would be a “release” for them in Jannah while men get so many hoor al ayn, because we’re assuming men are more sexual which isn’t necessarily true.
Zainab Bint Younus
May 26, 2016 - 10:37 amTo be perfectly honest, traditional Islamic scholarship *does* consider it a woman’s obligation to be “available” for sex, without paying much attention to whether she’s actually into it or not (tho we know from the Sunnah how important it is to ensure that she is, in fact, enjoying it and an active participant).
In terms of Jannah though, it is framed in the sense that a husband would not be able to restrict his wife’s movements or behaviours if he *did* feel inclined to just spending all his time having sex, whereas she might want to explore other aspects of Jannah as well. That’s not to say that she doesn’t or won’t enjoy sex in Jannah either, but that there is nothing to limit her movements or restrict her behaviours there as it is (presumed) in this world.
Nabeela Paleker
May 26, 2016 - 3:03 pmAlso if women wanted male hoor, they could get it. ?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 3:40 pmNabeela Paleker I have heard that too, is that true?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 3:40 pm“To be perfectly honest, traditional Islamic scholarship *does* consider it a woman’s obligation to be “available” for sex, without paying much attention to whether she’s actually into it or not” – I have a problem with this. Is this challenged by female or contemporary scholars?
Zainab Bint Younus
May 26, 2016 - 4:07 pmModern feminist ones, yes; contemporary Muslim teachers spend a lot more time affirming a wife’s right to an emotionally and intimately fulfilling relationship.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:12 pmCan you name a few for me so that I can read more about this specific subject?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:13 pmWhat do you think accounts for why traditional Islamic scholarship is so backward on this subject? Is it partially attributable to patriarchy and deliberate erasure of female voices?
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 4:14 pmAnd is the obligatory nature of sex applicable to both men and women in traditional scholarship?
Zainab Bint Younus
May 26, 2016 - 4:25 pmFeminist scholars I can’t name bc I’m not that familiar with them to begin with and often disagree on fundamental aqeeda basis; contemporary folks like Sh Yaser Birjas, Omar Suleiman etc are all generally forward thinking when it comes to women’s sexual rights. Classically, Ibn Taymiyyah considered it a husband’s obligation to sexually satisfy his wife and that if he does not, she has the right to divorce or annulment of the marriage.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:05 pmMust read on the topic is Kecia Ali’s Sexual Ethics in Islam
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:11 pmTraditional Islamic scholarship rooted in patriarchy is plain wrong on this one IMO. Although this aspect of traditional scholarship is often deemphasized but honestly a lot of confusing things suddenly make sense once one reads about the traditional Islamic conception of marriage. Modern rationalizations of certain concepts sugar coat the really patriarchal assumptions built into them. Kecia Ali’s book is seriously eye opening. I hadn’t even heard of many of the concepts and their origins much less encountered a critique.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 6:15 pmBtw, that aspect of traditional scholarship is also the reason some Muslim countries have trouble enacting marital rape laws. This has come up in Pakistan recently with regard to a new domestic abuse bill which is quite expansive and mandates a lot of infrastructure for women seeking help. But doesn’t cover marital raoe explicitly. A panel discussion with the folks drafting the bill and religious advisory council representatives etc revealed that traditional fiqh not recognizing marital rape is a barrier to including that explicitly in the domestic abuse bill which even covers psychological abuse.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:10 pmThat just isn’t acceptable and calls for more scholars to challenge this continuously and consistently until the original idea is abolished or rendered irrelevant today.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:11 pmThanks for the recommendations. I will look into this further.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:14 pm^related is the modeling of traditional marriage contracts on slave sale contracts which Kecia Ali also talks about. She proposes the need to start over. IIRC she says if we have to pick a financial contract as a model, a joint business partnership contract would be an option.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmAs a lawyer, I’m also working on similar ideas.
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:15 pmThis is all great to know!
Ambereen Shaffie
May 26, 2016 - 7:19 pmKARAMAH is doing great work on marriage contracts. They have a September training for attorneys if she is interested. I’ll post on my page when it’s up!
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 7:21 pm^who?
Shehnaz Zindabad
May 27, 2016 - 10:41 pmDon’t worry, girls: if you don’t want your hubby to have hoors, he won’t have them; and if you want me hoors, you will – let no one tell you what YOUR heaven, which by definition will be perfect for you, will be like.
Abdul Musawwir
May 26, 2016 - 11:37 amwhere are the other parts>??
The Salafi Feminist
May 26, 2016 - 12:27 pmOn the same website – click on author name on the article and it will take you to the complete list of articles.
Abdul Musawwir
May 26, 2016 - 11:37 amwhere are the other parts>??
The Salafi Feminist
May 26, 2016 - 12:27 pmOn the same website – click on author name on the article and it will take you to the complete list of articles.
Hayyah Hussain
May 26, 2016 - 3:33 pmDo hur al ain have will power too? Or are they slaves of men?
Hayyah Hussain
May 26, 2016 - 3:33 pmDo hur al ain have will power too? Or are they slaves of men?
The Salafi Feminist
May 26, 2016 - 3:49 pmAllahu a’lam; it seems from various commentaries that they are a separate creation in and of themselves and not human as we conceptualize it. Just as the angels are a separate creation and have no free will.
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:27 amwhy bother to ask these questions if you speculate on the answers…this is the danger that women pose…they blabber all the time and most of the time they fitna on things they cannot comprehend…yes, you fitna too much
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:28 amto share your husband with your best friend is similar to INCEST…May Allah grant you knowledge!!!
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:28 amto share your husband with your best friend is similar to INCEST…May Allah grant you knowledge!!!
Abdul Musawwir
May 26, 2016 - 11:37 amwhere are the other parts>??
The Salafi Feminist
May 26, 2016 - 12:27 pmOn the same website – click on author name on the article and it will take you to the complete list of articles.
Hayyah Hussain
May 26, 2016 - 3:33 pmDo hur al ain have will power too? Or are they slaves of men?
The Salafi Feminist
May 26, 2016 - 3:49 pmAllahu a’lam; it seems from various commentaries that they are a separate creation in and of themselves and not human as we conceptualize it. Just as the angels are a separate creation and have no free will.
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:27 amwhy bother to ask these questions if you speculate on the answers…this is the danger that women pose…they blabber all the time and most of the time they fitna on things they cannot comprehend…yes, you fitna too much
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:28 amto share your husband with your best friend is similar to INCEST…May Allah grant you knowledge!!!
Abdul Musawwir
May 26, 2016 - 11:37 amwhere are the other parts>??
The Salafi Feminist
May 26, 2016 - 12:27 pmOn the same website – click on author name on the article and it will take you to the complete list of articles.
Hayyah Hussain
May 26, 2016 - 3:33 pmDo hur al ain have will power too? Or are they slaves of men?
The Salafi Feminist
May 26, 2016 - 3:49 pmAllahu a’lam; it seems from various commentaries that they are a separate creation in and of themselves and not human as we conceptualize it. Just as the angels are a separate creation and have no free will.
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:27 amwhy bother to ask these questions if you speculate on the answers…this is the danger that women pose…they blabber all the time and most of the time they fitna on things they cannot comprehend…yes, you fitna too much
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:28 amto share your husband with your best friend is similar to INCEST…May Allah grant you knowledge!!!
Sara Marcias
May 26, 2016 - 12:14 pmI so enjoyed reading this..what a great insight…
Sara Marcias
May 26, 2016 - 12:14 pmI so enjoyed reading this..what a great insight…
Sara Marcias
May 26, 2016 - 12:14 pmI so enjoyed reading this..what a great insight…
Vanessa Mahadeo
May 26, 2016 - 4:24 pmAalih Hussein
Vanessa Mahadeo
May 26, 2016 - 4:24 pmAalih Hussein
Vanessa Mahadeo
May 26, 2016 - 4:24 pmAalih Hussein
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:34 pmIs there actual data to support the notion of hard to control male libido as opposed to human libido in general?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:34 pmIs there actual data to support the notion of hard to control male libido as opposed to human libido in general?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:34 pmIs there actual data to support the notion of hard to control male libido as opposed to human libido in general?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:34 pmIs there actual data to support the notion of hard to control male libido as opposed to human libido in general?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:38 pmI’ll also have to disagree re “we” as in all Muslim women accepting male authority in general.
There’s an implication that patriarchy is almost meant to be suffered in this world. I can’t see God mandating 50% of the population to suffer for being born a specific way.
The prophets example is an interesting one since the Quran mentions only a few by name but refers to hundreds of thousands existing. And sent to all communities. One of the arguments used for men being prophets is patriarchal cultures being more receptive to men preaching. Since prophets were sent to all communities and matriarchal societies exist too – isn’t it likely they were sent women prophets? This is not even counting women like Mary (AS) …idk what exact criteria is used to declare someone a prophet. But I don’t understand why she wouldn’t fall into that category.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:38 pmI’ll also have to disagree re “we” as in all Muslim women accepting male authority in general.
There’s an implication that patriarchy is almost meant to be suffered in this world. I can’t see God mandating 50% of the population to suffer for being born a specific way.
The prophets example is an interesting one since the Quran mentions only a few by name but refers to hundreds of thousands existing. And sent to all communities. One of the arguments used for men being prophets is patriarchal cultures being more receptive to men preaching. Since prophets were sent to all communities and matriarchal societies exist too – isn’t it likely they were sent women prophets? This is not even counting women like Mary (AS) …idk what exact criteria is used to declare someone a prophet. But I don’t understand why she wouldn’t fall into that category.
Willow Ommaryam
May 26, 2016 - 10:50 pmThere are several schools of thought (among ashari traditionalists, at any rate) that suggest Mary AS is a nabi. We use the term “prophet” for both nabi and rasool, which causes unnecessary confusion. Since she was not given a book, she could not be a rasool, but the minority opinion that she could be considered a nabi has existed since the middle ages.
Willow Ommaryam
May 26, 2016 - 10:50 pmThere are several schools of thought (among ashari traditionalists, at any rate) that suggest Mary AS is a nabi. We use the term “prophet” for both nabi and rasool, which causes unnecessary confusion. Since she was not given a book, she could not be a rasool, but the minority opinion that she could be considered a nabi has existed since the middle ages.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 10:58 pmI believe Zainab’s article specifically mentions nabuat as being only for men which is what I’m disagreeing with.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 10:58 pmI believe Zainab’s article specifically mentions nabuat as being only for men which is what I’m disagreeing with.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 1:47 amAbout patriarchy, I dunno, we shouldn’t just be accepting everything men throw our way. I understand why they have a certain amount of authority, because they’re meant to take care of us, and I honestly believe that if men were not ordered to take care of women that they wouldn’t have any automatic leadership over us. That brings me to think about modern times, where many women work to help support the household. I feel like this somehow gives the woman more authority, especially if her financial contribution is substantial. I can’t imagine the Prophet PBUH having ordered Khadijah RA around and telling her when she’s allowed to leave the house etc. I also really believe that women should all draw up their own detailed marriage contracts ensuring permission from their husband’s to work, travel when necessary, visit friends and family etc so it’s already agreed upon before marriage and then his position can’t be abused. ?
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 5:39 am^i highly recommend reading the book Men in Charge edited by Ziba Mir-Hosseini which has a collection of essays by a variety of authors including scholars and activists about the Quranic term qawamun and the parameters of male authority. Also covers the situation you describe Nabeela re women making significant financial contributions.
Although I will say that just because a lot of women do unpaid work doesn’t mean they support the household less. It’s been estimated that if women who are full-time homemakers were paid for their work, it would easily be a six figure salary. We need to think about devaluing of the work commonly done by women because no money exchanges hands.
Also I’ve yet to see a convincing reason why there needs to be any kind of leadership in a marital relationship. Like it’s a partnership between two people… What’s the point of a “leader”?
Finally, re marriage contracts. IMO that seems like a pretty joyless way of thinking of marriage. I’m not married so what do I know. But if I feel the need to put clauses to the level of being ” allowed” to visit friends and family, why would I marry a person who I fear won’t be decent enough to think that’s the normal state of things I.e. who thinks I should need their permission to be a person.
That said, if that stuff needs to be put in there, then it should be a part of the standard contract template.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:48 amI think any marriage where people are shoving their rights in their spouse’s face is a bad thing, but the contract still protects women, and at least makes it clear what she expects in the marriage. I would also love to think that all marriages are just pure partnerships in terms of leadership but men do have more responsibility and at times one spouse may be able to take care of things better (this could be the woman as well, in which case it wouldn’t make sense for the man to have authority over his wife, and a contract could help make that clear)
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:54 amI don’t think women should shy away from writing up a contract though, it doesn’t mean she thinks her husband won’t allow her certain things, but rather it makes things clear and prevents any oppression /abuse of rights from occurring. It’s obviously not ideal to have to put such clauses in, but due to a husband’s Islamic rights, if he ended up being an asshole and prevented her from working for example, if there was no contract she’d have to obey him… Or get divorced (and I don’t think she’ll easily get a divorce for that reason unless there was a contract). I’m not married either but I know that when I get married I want to draw up a marriage contract that will protect both spouse’s rights and be fair towards both spouses .
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:56 amAnd it may be that a woman needs to travel for work at times but her husband believes a woman shouldn’t travel alone , a contract will make it clear what she believes and he won’t be able to prevent her from travelling if he initially agrees.
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 6:03 am^yeah see I don’t think “she’d have to obey him”. I disagree completely with that assumption that women need permission from husbands to carry out basic life functions or anything else for that matter. [I was gonna say women aren’t slaves but then I remember that apparently traditional marriage contracts were originally modeled on slave sale contracts …which explains a few things]. If it must be made clear, then I think it should be a part of the standard marriage contract template and not force each woman to individually put in clauses to be allowed to breathe as a human being.
You say “due to a husband’s Islamic rights, if he ended up being an asshole…she’d have to obey him”…I’m disputing that this should be the default case at all…I don’t think husbands should have ” Islamic rights” to be assholes unless specified otherwise explicitly in marriage contracts.
Highly recommend that book I mentioned earlier. That goes through this stuff much better than I can re “obeying”.
Michael A Gatto
May 27, 2016 - 7:15 amI question the idea that whoever contributes the most income in a family has the authority. It may seem sensible to some. But, I see no basis for it in logic.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 7:20 amZahra, but the reality is that a woman does need her husband’s permission to travel, and Islam doesn’t put natural conditions on this to allow a woman to travel for work without her husband’s permission, therefore a contract would be needed or the woman would have to hope that her husband will just be okay with it when the time comes.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 7:22 amMichael, I think to a certain extent, it gives some authority, because that person is taking care of the family, but I mean authority as in the type of leadership given to men for being qawwam, not authority that means bossing people around.
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 8:44 amWhy does a woman need her husband’s permission to travel?
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 8:45 amNabeela…to further Michael’s point…define taking care of the family… Women are not taking care of the family?
Qawwam is an interesting concept about which there is much debate and various opinions
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 9:01 amBecause I’m pretty sure it’s one of the rights of the husband…
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 9:04 amWell if you look at the husband’s Islamic responsibility vs the wife’s : the husband has to protect his wife, provide financially and guide his family religiously. These are his duties. A wife on the other hand doesn’t need to provide financially, doesn’t need to protect her husband and doesn’t even need to do housework even if she’s at home, but since women do usually do more than what is islamically required, that should give them more authority, I think?
Jodi Wilson
May 27, 2016 - 2:24 pmDr. Hamid Slimi is a popular Imam who believes Mary (AS) is a Prophet because he claims she meets the definition and thus her sex isn’t a factor. He’s a pretty cool guy, runs my favorite masjid, you should check him out.
Michael A Gatto
May 27, 2016 - 7:33 pmIt’s purely academic to point out “rights”, though, when I’ve seen an extremely wide range of family arrangements in various communities/classes/cultures just within our own larger religious community. In reality, dynamics within families are shaped by individuals and their capabilities and opportunities. Some men take up all of the housework and still work, while many women must work because of the economic realities in North America. Some want to have a career and find fulfillment in it. Some enjoy running their families only. It’s all good. It’s hard to see where the “rights” rhetoric actually has an impact in real life on North America.
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 5:43 amMaybe the level of rights change according to custom, but yeah, there are many different ways of living and cultures and while certain fundamental parts of marriage in Islam may not change, everyone’s marriage is different and ultimately people should aim to live on a footing of kindness and equity, as the quran mentions ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 5:55 amThe thing is we’re talking about Islam with a capital I like there’s only one version. But there are multiple interpretations and opinions.
Nabeela Paleker re husband’s responsibilities… Protection etc.
Protection from what?
Guide the family religiously? What does that mean? And where does it come from? I haven’t heard this before.
Re right to give or not give permission to travel…as far as I know there are several opinions on this… it’s not in the Quran…and it makes no sense at least today…
Re financial stuff…yes I’ve seen this a lot… And I keep hearing that the wife doesn’t need to do anything at home or work etc except be sexually available…
I won’t hide my aversion to such a conception of marriage. And i’m not convinced this is Islam with a capital I. But even that aside, is this a realistic idea of any marriage? I’m having a hard time imagining a situation, apart from rare exceptions one sees on reality TV, where a wife just sits around all day doing nothing.
In real life, wives are expected to and do contribute work to the household whether that’s unpaid or paid doesn’t matter. In fact by number of hours worked, women often contribute more than men. The devaluation of the various forms of labour women perform is not OK.
Finally I question the need for any kind of authority in a marriage. What’s the point? Two adults can’t work together without one of them being in charge?
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 6:29 amYou’re right, the reality is that women *do * do work and often more than men in terms of time (some women are on duty 24/7 while men are only working 9-5),but i still wouldn’t ignore rulings that seem to be legit, even it doesn’t necessarily make sense in today’s time. That being said, I’d love to hear what you believe are the islamic rights and responsibilities of the husband and wife ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 6:33 am^the thing is fiqh rulings are not set in stone and can change over time. The book I mentioned outlines some great work being done by Islamic scholars on how to update rulings today.
Me personally… I believe that rights and responsibilities are to be decent human beings and want for the other what you want for yourself.
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 7:09 amWhich book is it? Is it available online?
What you described above, yeah that’s exactly the type of marriage I’d want lol. I just feel that I still need to navigate the rulings so I don’t end up doing anything wrong (?) which is why I’m in favour of marriage contracts that just take away the whole needing permission for stuff ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 7:12 amIt’s called Men in Charge. It’s edited by Ziba Mir-Hosseini
I have a eBook copy from Google Play.
Depending on where you are, your library may have it.
Idk if there’s content from there that’s available publicly without needing to borrow or purchase the book
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 7:16 amAh okay. I’m in South Africa. Have no idea where to get it but thanks ?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:38 pmI’ll also have to disagree re “we” as in all Muslim women accepting male authority in general.
There’s an implication that patriarchy is almost meant to be suffered in this world. I can’t see God mandating 50% of the population to suffer for being born a specific way.
The prophets example is an interesting one since the Quran mentions only a few by name but refers to hundreds of thousands existing. And sent to all communities. One of the arguments used for men being prophets is patriarchal cultures being more receptive to men preaching. Since prophets were sent to all communities and matriarchal societies exist too – isn’t it likely they were sent women prophets? This is not even counting women like Mary (AS) …idk what exact criteria is used to declare someone a prophet. But I don’t understand why she wouldn’t fall into that category.
Willow Ommaryam
May 26, 2016 - 10:50 pmThere are several schools of thought (among ashari traditionalists, at any rate) that suggest Mary AS is a nabi. We use the term “prophet” for both nabi and rasool, which causes unnecessary confusion. Since she was not given a book, she could not be a rasool, but the minority opinion that she could be considered a nabi has existed since the middle ages.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 10:58 pmI believe Zainab’s article specifically mentions nabuat as being only for men which is what I’m disagreeing with.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 1:47 amAbout patriarchy, I dunno, we shouldn’t just be accepting everything men throw our way. I understand why they have a certain amount of authority, because they’re meant to take care of us, and I honestly believe that if men were not ordered to take care of women that they wouldn’t have any automatic leadership over us. That brings me to think about modern times, where many women work to help support the household. I feel like this somehow gives the woman more authority, especially if her financial contribution is substantial. I can’t imagine the Prophet PBUH having ordered Khadijah RA around and telling her when she’s allowed to leave the house etc. I also really believe that women should all draw up their own detailed marriage contracts ensuring permission from their husband’s to work, travel when necessary, visit friends and family etc so it’s already agreed upon before marriage and then his position can’t be abused. ?
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 5:39 am^i highly recommend reading the book Men in Charge edited by Ziba Mir-Hosseini which has a collection of essays by a variety of authors including scholars and activists about the Quranic term qawamun and the parameters of male authority. Also covers the situation you describe Nabeela re women making significant financial contributions.
Although I will say that just because a lot of women do unpaid work doesn’t mean they support the household less. It’s been estimated that if women who are full-time homemakers were paid for their work, it would easily be a six figure salary. We need to think about devaluing of the work commonly done by women because no money exchanges hands.
Also I’ve yet to see a convincing reason why there needs to be any kind of leadership in a marital relationship. Like it’s a partnership between two people… What’s the point of a “leader”?
Finally, re marriage contracts. IMO that seems like a pretty joyless way of thinking of marriage. I’m not married so what do I know. But if I feel the need to put clauses to the level of being ” allowed” to visit friends and family, why would I marry a person who I fear won’t be decent enough to think that’s the normal state of things I.e. who thinks I should need their permission to be a person.
That said, if that stuff needs to be put in there, then it should be a part of the standard contract template.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:48 amI think any marriage where people are shoving their rights in their spouse’s face is a bad thing, but the contract still protects women, and at least makes it clear what she expects in the marriage. I would also love to think that all marriages are just pure partnerships in terms of leadership but men do have more responsibility and at times one spouse may be able to take care of things better (this could be the woman as well, in which case it wouldn’t make sense for the man to have authority over his wife, and a contract could help make that clear)
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:54 amI don’t think women should shy away from writing up a contract though, it doesn’t mean she thinks her husband won’t allow her certain things, but rather it makes things clear and prevents any oppression /abuse of rights from occurring. It’s obviously not ideal to have to put such clauses in, but due to a husband’s Islamic rights, if he ended up being an asshole and prevented her from working for example, if there was no contract she’d have to obey him… Or get divorced (and I don’t think she’ll easily get a divorce for that reason unless there was a contract). I’m not married either but I know that when I get married I want to draw up a marriage contract that will protect both spouse’s rights and be fair towards both spouses .
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:56 amAnd it may be that a woman needs to travel for work at times but her husband believes a woman shouldn’t travel alone , a contract will make it clear what she believes and he won’t be able to prevent her from travelling if he initially agrees.
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 6:03 am^yeah see I don’t think “she’d have to obey him”. I disagree completely with that assumption that women need permission from husbands to carry out basic life functions or anything else for that matter. [I was gonna say women aren’t slaves but then I remember that apparently traditional marriage contracts were originally modeled on slave sale contracts …which explains a few things]. If it must be made clear, then I think it should be a part of the standard marriage contract template and not force each woman to individually put in clauses to be allowed to breathe as a human being.
You say “due to a husband’s Islamic rights, if he ended up being an asshole…she’d have to obey him”…I’m disputing that this should be the default case at all…I don’t think husbands should have ” Islamic rights” to be assholes unless specified otherwise explicitly in marriage contracts.
Highly recommend that book I mentioned earlier. That goes through this stuff much better than I can re “obeying”.
Michael A Gatto
May 27, 2016 - 7:15 amI question the idea that whoever contributes the most income in a family has the authority. It may seem sensible to some. But, I see no basis for it in logic.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 7:20 amZahra, but the reality is that a woman does need her husband’s permission to travel, and Islam doesn’t put natural conditions on this to allow a woman to travel for work without her husband’s permission, therefore a contract would be needed or the woman would have to hope that her husband will just be okay with it when the time comes.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 7:22 amMichael, I think to a certain extent, it gives some authority, because that person is taking care of the family, but I mean authority as in the type of leadership given to men for being qawwam, not authority that means bossing people around.
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 8:44 amWhy does a woman need her husband’s permission to travel?
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 8:45 amNabeela…to further Michael’s point…define taking care of the family… Women are not taking care of the family?
Qawwam is an interesting concept about which there is much debate and various opinions
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 9:01 amBecause I’m pretty sure it’s one of the rights of the husband…
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 9:04 amWell if you look at the husband’s Islamic responsibility vs the wife’s : the husband has to protect his wife, provide financially and guide his family religiously. These are his duties. A wife on the other hand doesn’t need to provide financially, doesn’t need to protect her husband and doesn’t even need to do housework even if she’s at home, but since women do usually do more than what is islamically required, that should give them more authority, I think?
Jodi Wilson
May 27, 2016 - 2:24 pmDr. Hamid Slimi is a popular Imam who believes Mary (AS) is a Prophet because he claims she meets the definition and thus her sex isn’t a factor. He’s a pretty cool guy, runs my favorite masjid, you should check him out.
Michael A Gatto
May 27, 2016 - 7:33 pmIt’s purely academic to point out “rights”, though, when I’ve seen an extremely wide range of family arrangements in various communities/classes/cultures just within our own larger religious community. In reality, dynamics within families are shaped by individuals and their capabilities and opportunities. Some men take up all of the housework and still work, while many women must work because of the economic realities in North America. Some want to have a career and find fulfillment in it. Some enjoy running their families only. It’s all good. It’s hard to see where the “rights” rhetoric actually has an impact in real life on North America.
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 5:43 amMaybe the level of rights change according to custom, but yeah, there are many different ways of living and cultures and while certain fundamental parts of marriage in Islam may not change, everyone’s marriage is different and ultimately people should aim to live on a footing of kindness and equity, as the quran mentions ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 5:55 amThe thing is we’re talking about Islam with a capital I like there’s only one version. But there are multiple interpretations and opinions.
Nabeela Paleker re husband’s responsibilities… Protection etc.
Protection from what?
Guide the family religiously? What does that mean? And where does it come from? I haven’t heard this before.
Re right to give or not give permission to travel…as far as I know there are several opinions on this… it’s not in the Quran…and it makes no sense at least today…
Re financial stuff…yes I’ve seen this a lot… And I keep hearing that the wife doesn’t need to do anything at home or work etc except be sexually available…
I won’t hide my aversion to such a conception of marriage. And i’m not convinced this is Islam with a capital I. But even that aside, is this a realistic idea of any marriage? I’m having a hard time imagining a situation, apart from rare exceptions one sees on reality TV, where a wife just sits around all day doing nothing.
In real life, wives are expected to and do contribute work to the household whether that’s unpaid or paid doesn’t matter. In fact by number of hours worked, women often contribute more than men. The devaluation of the various forms of labour women perform is not OK.
Finally I question the need for any kind of authority in a marriage. What’s the point? Two adults can’t work together without one of them being in charge?
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 6:29 amYou’re right, the reality is that women *do * do work and often more than men in terms of time (some women are on duty 24/7 while men are only working 9-5),but i still wouldn’t ignore rulings that seem to be legit, even it doesn’t necessarily make sense in today’s time. That being said, I’d love to hear what you believe are the islamic rights and responsibilities of the husband and wife ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 6:33 am^the thing is fiqh rulings are not set in stone and can change over time. The book I mentioned outlines some great work being done by Islamic scholars on how to update rulings today.
Me personally… I believe that rights and responsibilities are to be decent human beings and want for the other what you want for yourself.
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 7:09 amWhich book is it? Is it available online?
What you described above, yeah that’s exactly the type of marriage I’d want lol. I just feel that I still need to navigate the rulings so I don’t end up doing anything wrong (?) which is why I’m in favour of marriage contracts that just take away the whole needing permission for stuff ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 7:12 amIt’s called Men in Charge. It’s edited by Ziba Mir-Hosseini
I have a eBook copy from Google Play.
Depending on where you are, your library may have it.
Idk if there’s content from there that’s available publicly without needing to borrow or purchase the book
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 7:16 amAh okay. I’m in South Africa. Have no idea where to get it but thanks ?
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 8:38 pmI’ll also have to disagree re “we” as in all Muslim women accepting male authority in general.
There’s an implication that patriarchy is almost meant to be suffered in this world. I can’t see God mandating 50% of the population to suffer for being born a specific way.
The prophets example is an interesting one since the Quran mentions only a few by name but refers to hundreds of thousands existing. And sent to all communities. One of the arguments used for men being prophets is patriarchal cultures being more receptive to men preaching. Since prophets were sent to all communities and matriarchal societies exist too – isn’t it likely they were sent women prophets? This is not even counting women like Mary (AS) …idk what exact criteria is used to declare someone a prophet. But I don’t understand why she wouldn’t fall into that category.
Willow Ommaryam
May 26, 2016 - 10:50 pmThere are several schools of thought (among ashari traditionalists, at any rate) that suggest Mary AS is a nabi. We use the term “prophet” for both nabi and rasool, which causes unnecessary confusion. Since she was not given a book, she could not be a rasool, but the minority opinion that she could be considered a nabi has existed since the middle ages.
Zahra Khan
May 26, 2016 - 10:58 pmI believe Zainab’s article specifically mentions nabuat as being only for men which is what I’m disagreeing with.
p4rv3zkh4n
May 6, 2017 - 6:48 pmNear the end of surah Yusuf, it is mentioned that only men were rasul.
There are sahih hadith which mention fatima as leader of the women in jannah. This again proves that there were no women nabi or else faitima could not be the leader of all women.
Zainab Bint Younus
May 26, 2016 - 11:16 pmYes, I do follow the opinion that women were not given Nubuwwah or Risaalah.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 1:47 amAbout patriarchy, I dunno, we shouldn’t just be accepting everything men throw our way. I understand why they have a certain amount of authority, because they’re meant to take care of us, and I honestly believe that if men were not ordered to take care of women that they wouldn’t have any automatic leadership over us. That brings me to think about modern times, where many women work to help support the household. I feel like this somehow gives the woman more authority, especially if her financial contribution is substantial. I can’t imagine the Prophet PBUH having ordered Khadijah RA around and telling her when she’s allowed to leave the house etc. I also really believe that women should all draw up their own detailed marriage contracts ensuring permission from their husband’s to work, travel when necessary, visit friends and family etc so it’s already agreed upon before marriage and then his position can’t be abused. ?
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 5:39 am^i highly recommend reading the book Men in Charge edited by Ziba Mir-Hosseini which has a collection of essays by a variety of authors including scholars and activists about the Quranic term qawamun and the parameters of male authority. Also covers the situation you describe Nabeela re women making significant financial contributions.
Although I will say that just because a lot of women do unpaid work doesn’t mean they support the household less. It’s been estimated that if women who are full-time homemakers were paid for their work, it would easily be a six figure salary. We need to think about devaluing of the work commonly done by women because no money exchanges hands.
Also I’ve yet to see a convincing reason why there needs to be any kind of leadership in a marital relationship. Like it’s a partnership between two people… What’s the point of a “leader”?
Finally, re marriage contracts. IMO that seems like a pretty joyless way of thinking of marriage. I’m not married so what do I know. But if I feel the need to put clauses to the level of being ” allowed” to visit friends and family, why would I marry a person who I fear won’t be decent enough to think that’s the normal state of things I.e. who thinks I should need their permission to be a person.
That said, if that stuff needs to be put in there, then it should be a part of the standard contract template.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:48 amI think any marriage where people are shoving their rights in their spouse’s face is a bad thing, but the contract still protects women, and at least makes it clear what she expects in the marriage. I would also love to think that all marriages are just pure partnerships in terms of leadership but men do have more responsibility and at times one spouse may be able to take care of things better (this could be the woman as well, in which case it wouldn’t make sense for the man to have authority over his wife, and a contract could help make that clear)
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:54 amI don’t think women should shy away from writing up a contract though, it doesn’t mean she thinks her husband won’t allow her certain things, but rather it makes things clear and prevents any oppression /abuse of rights from occurring. It’s obviously not ideal to have to put such clauses in, but due to a husband’s Islamic rights, if he ended up being an asshole and prevented her from working for example, if there was no contract she’d have to obey him… Or get divorced (and I don’t think she’ll easily get a divorce for that reason unless there was a contract). I’m not married either but I know that when I get married I want to draw up a marriage contract that will protect both spouse’s rights and be fair towards both spouses .
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 5:56 amAnd it may be that a woman needs to travel for work at times but her husband believes a woman shouldn’t travel alone , a contract will make it clear what she believes and he won’t be able to prevent her from travelling if he initially agrees.
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 6:03 am^yeah see I don’t think “she’d have to obey him”. I disagree completely with that assumption that women need permission from husbands to carry out basic life functions or anything else for that matter. [I was gonna say women aren’t slaves but then I remember that apparently traditional marriage contracts were originally modeled on slave sale contracts …which explains a few things]. If it must be made clear, then I think it should be a part of the standard marriage contract template and not force each woman to individually put in clauses to be allowed to breathe as a human being.
You say “due to a husband’s Islamic rights, if he ended up being an asshole…she’d have to obey him”…I’m disputing that this should be the default case at all…I don’t think husbands should have ” Islamic rights” to be assholes unless specified otherwise explicitly in marriage contracts.
Highly recommend that book I mentioned earlier. That goes through this stuff much better than I can re “obeying”.
Michael A Gatto
May 27, 2016 - 7:15 amI question the idea that whoever contributes the most income in a family has the authority. It may seem sensible to some. But, I see no basis for it in logic.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 7:20 amZahra, but the reality is that a woman does need her husband’s permission to travel, and Islam doesn’t put natural conditions on this to allow a woman to travel for work without her husband’s permission, therefore a contract would be needed or the woman would have to hope that her husband will just be okay with it when the time comes.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 7:22 amMichael, I think to a certain extent, it gives some authority, because that person is taking care of the family, but I mean authority as in the type of leadership given to men for being qawwam, not authority that means bossing people around.
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 8:44 amWhy does a woman need her husband’s permission to travel?
Zahra Khan
May 27, 2016 - 8:45 amNabeela…to further Michael’s point…define taking care of the family… Women are not taking care of the family?
Qawwam is an interesting concept about which there is much debate and various opinions
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 9:01 amBecause I’m pretty sure it’s one of the rights of the husband…
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 9:04 amWell if you look at the husband’s Islamic responsibility vs the wife’s : the husband has to protect his wife, provide financially and guide his family religiously. These are his duties. A wife on the other hand doesn’t need to provide financially, doesn’t need to protect her husband and doesn’t even need to do housework even if she’s at home, but since women do usually do more than what is islamically required, that should give them more authority, I think?
Jodi Wilson
May 27, 2016 - 2:24 pmDr. Hamid Slimi is a popular Imam who believes Mary (AS) is a Prophet because he claims she meets the definition and thus her sex isn’t a factor. He’s a pretty cool guy, runs my favorite masjid, you should check him out.
Michael A Gatto
May 27, 2016 - 7:33 pmIt’s purely academic to point out “rights”, though, when I’ve seen an extremely wide range of family arrangements in various communities/classes/cultures just within our own larger religious community. In reality, dynamics within families are shaped by individuals and their capabilities and opportunities. Some men take up all of the housework and still work, while many women must work because of the economic realities in North America. Some want to have a career and find fulfillment in it. Some enjoy running their families only. It’s all good. It’s hard to see where the “rights” rhetoric actually has an impact in real life on North America.
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 5:43 amMaybe the level of rights change according to custom, but yeah, there are many different ways of living and cultures and while certain fundamental parts of marriage in Islam may not change, everyone’s marriage is different and ultimately people should aim to live on a footing of kindness and equity, as the quran mentions ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 5:55 amThe thing is we’re talking about Islam with a capital I like there’s only one version. But there are multiple interpretations and opinions.
Nabeela Paleker re husband’s responsibilities… Protection etc.
Protection from what?
Guide the family religiously? What does that mean? And where does it come from? I haven’t heard this before.
Re right to give or not give permission to travel…as far as I know there are several opinions on this… it’s not in the Quran…and it makes no sense at least today…
Re financial stuff…yes I’ve seen this a lot… And I keep hearing that the wife doesn’t need to do anything at home or work etc except be sexually available…
I won’t hide my aversion to such a conception of marriage. And i’m not convinced this is Islam with a capital I. But even that aside, is this a realistic idea of any marriage? I’m having a hard time imagining a situation, apart from rare exceptions one sees on reality TV, where a wife just sits around all day doing nothing.
In real life, wives are expected to and do contribute work to the household whether that’s unpaid or paid doesn’t matter. In fact by number of hours worked, women often contribute more than men. The devaluation of the various forms of labour women perform is not OK.
Finally I question the need for any kind of authority in a marriage. What’s the point? Two adults can’t work together without one of them being in charge?
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 6:29 amYou’re right, the reality is that women *do * do work and often more than men in terms of time (some women are on duty 24/7 while men are only working 9-5),but i still wouldn’t ignore rulings that seem to be legit, even it doesn’t necessarily make sense in today’s time. That being said, I’d love to hear what you believe are the islamic rights and responsibilities of the husband and wife ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 6:33 am^the thing is fiqh rulings are not set in stone and can change over time. The book I mentioned outlines some great work being done by Islamic scholars on how to update rulings today.
Me personally… I believe that rights and responsibilities are to be decent human beings and want for the other what you want for yourself.
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 7:09 amWhich book is it? Is it available online?
What you described above, yeah that’s exactly the type of marriage I’d want lol. I just feel that I still need to navigate the rulings so I don’t end up doing anything wrong (?) which is why I’m in favour of marriage contracts that just take away the whole needing permission for stuff ?
Zahra Khan
May 28, 2016 - 7:12 amIt’s called Men in Charge. It’s edited by Ziba Mir-Hosseini
I have a eBook copy from Google Play.
Depending on where you are, your library may have it.
Idk if there’s content from there that’s available publicly without needing to borrow or purchase the book
Nabeela Paleker
May 28, 2016 - 7:16 amAh okay. I’m in South Africa. Have no idea where to get it but thanks ?
Aaminah Noorani
May 26, 2016 - 11:26 pmWhat about handsome men for women?
Aaminah Noorani
May 26, 2016 - 11:26 pmWhat about handsome men for women?
Aaminah Noorani
May 26, 2016 - 11:26 pmWhat about handsome men for women?
Aaminah Noorani
May 26, 2016 - 11:26 pmWhat about handsome men for women?
NadaUmm Nour
May 27, 2016 - 3:04 amI understand where you are coming from. And certainly agree that living under the authority of men, accepting rulings that make us submissive to them, and seeing them enjoy certain privileges, we are simply not allowed to enjoy, are one of the greatest trials a Muslim woman bears.
But I don’t get the comparison of women being free as being equally enjoyable as men satisfying themselves sexually with multiple partners.
Absence of restrictions is not the same as enjoying a particular form of pleasure. And women are in need of that enjoyment just as much as men. Allaah mentions that men will have huur al ayn that have never been touched. Well, all women desire a man that belongs only to her, that is pleasing to her eyes, who loves or touches no one but her. And I don’t believe we women will be denied that. How we get that – I can’t comprehend. Perhaps women don’t desire multiple partners *as much* as men but they do desire a lot in this department. Certainly, just the freedom from male patriarchy won’t compensate for what we desire sexually and romantically.
NadaUmm Nour
May 27, 2016 - 3:04 amI understand where you are coming from. And certainly agree that living under the authority of men, accepting rulings that make us submissive to them, and seeing them enjoy certain privileges, we are simply not allowed to enjoy, are one of the greatest trials a Muslim woman bears.
But I don’t get the comparison of women being free as being equally enjoyable as men satisfying themselves sexually with multiple partners.
Absence of restrictions is not the same as enjoying a particular form of pleasure. And women are in need of that enjoyment just as much as men. Allaah mentions that men will have huur al ayn that have never been touched. Well, all women desire a man that belongs only to her, that is pleasing to her eyes, who loves or touches no one but her. And I don’t believe we women will be denied that. How we get that – I can’t comprehend. Perhaps women don’t desire multiple partners *as much* as men but they do desire a lot in this department. Certainly, just the freedom from male patriarchy won’t compensate for what we desire sexually and romantically.
Nizra Nilufer
May 27, 2016 - 4:37 amI agree. I can’t speak for those in polygamous marriages, but I believe that most women can become incredibly jealous regarding this issue (myself included). Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I feel that since Zainab is in a polygamous marriage, she and many others in similar marriages would find this explanation satisfactory. But how do women who have never had to share their husbands digest that? When Allah promises “And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer – those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.” all I want to believe is that my husband will remain only mine ;). How do we reconcile the two promises? Wallahu A’lam.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 6:03 amWe obviously can’t have anything in Jannah that conflicts with someone else’s wishes. So if our husbands wanted other women in paradise we can’t stop them. It’s their right and it’s promised by Allah. Likewise if a woman wanted a man in Jannah who would only be for her, this is easy for Allah. Allah can create a man of Jannah for her and her husband’s wishes can’t prevent her from having that. (That’s the way I see it, and taking a look at how many women hate polygamy for themselves in this world , it’s strange to expect women to be happy with a description of Jannah that says polygamy will be forced on them but they don’t get a man of their own if they want. Allah *is* fair, we must believe it and have faith that we won’t be wronged.)
NadaUmm Nour
May 27, 2016 - 3:04 amI understand where you are coming from. And certainly agree that living under the authority of men, accepting rulings that make us submissive to them, and seeing them enjoy certain privileges, we are simply not allowed to enjoy, are one of the greatest trials a Muslim woman bears.
But I don’t get the comparison of women being free as being equally enjoyable as men satisfying themselves sexually with multiple partners.
Absence of restrictions is not the same as enjoying a particular form of pleasure. And women are in need of that enjoyment just as much as men. Allaah mentions that men will have huur al ayn that have never been touched. Well, all women desire a man that belongs only to her, that is pleasing to her eyes, who loves or touches no one but her. And I don’t believe we women will be denied that. How we get that – I can’t comprehend. Perhaps women don’t desire multiple partners *as much* as men but they do desire a lot in this department. Certainly, just the freedom from male patriarchy won’t compensate for what we desire sexually and romantically.
Nizra Nilufer
May 27, 2016 - 4:37 amI agree. I can’t speak for those in polygamous marriages, but I believe that most women can become incredibly jealous regarding this issue (myself included). Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I feel that since Zainab is in a polygamous marriage, she and many others in similar marriages would find this explanation satisfactory. But how do women who have never had to share their husbands digest that? When Allah promises “And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer – those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.” all I want to believe is that my husband will remain only mine ;). How do we reconcile the two promises? Wallahu A’lam.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 6:03 amWe obviously can’t have anything in Jannah that conflicts with someone else’s wishes. So if our husbands wanted other women in paradise we can’t stop them. It’s their right and it’s promised by Allah. Likewise if a woman wanted a man in Jannah who would only be for her, this is easy for Allah. Allah can create a man of Jannah for her and her husband’s wishes can’t prevent her from having that. (That’s the way I see it, and taking a look at how many women hate polygamy for themselves in this world , it’s strange to expect women to be happy with a description of Jannah that says polygamy will be forced on them but they don’t get a man of their own if they want. Allah *is* fair, we must believe it and have faith that we won’t be wronged.)
NadaUmm Nour
May 27, 2016 - 3:04 amI understand where you are coming from. And certainly agree that living under the authority of men, accepting rulings that make us submissive to them, and seeing them enjoy certain privileges, we are simply not allowed to enjoy, are one of the greatest trials a Muslim woman bears.
But I don’t get the comparison of women being free as being equally enjoyable as men satisfying themselves sexually with multiple partners.
Absence of restrictions is not the same as enjoying a particular form of pleasure. And women are in need of that enjoyment just as much as men. Allaah mentions that men will have huur al ayn that have never been touched. Well, all women desire a man that belongs only to her, that is pleasing to her eyes, who loves or touches no one but her. And I don’t believe we women will be denied that. How we get that – I can’t comprehend. Perhaps women don’t desire multiple partners *as much* as men but they do desire a lot in this department. Certainly, just the freedom from male patriarchy won’t compensate for what we desire sexually and romantically.
Nizra Nilufer
May 27, 2016 - 4:37 amI agree. I can’t speak for those in polygamous marriages, but I believe that most women can become incredibly jealous regarding this issue (myself included). Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I feel that since Zainab is in a polygamous marriage, she and many others in similar marriages would find this explanation satisfactory. But how do women who have never had to share their husbands digest that? When Allah promises “And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer – those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.” all I want to believe is that my husband will remain only mine ;). How do we reconcile the two promises? Wallahu A’lam.
Nabeela Paleker
May 27, 2016 - 6:03 amWe obviously can’t have anything in Jannah that conflicts with someone else’s wishes. So if our husbands wanted other women in paradise we can’t stop them. It’s their right and it’s promised by Allah. Likewise if a woman wanted a man in Jannah who would only be for her, this is easy for Allah. Allah can create a man of Jannah for her and her husband’s wishes can’t prevent her from having that. (That’s the way I see it, and taking a look at how many women hate polygamy for themselves in this world , it’s strange to expect women to be happy with a description of Jannah that says polygamy will be forced on them but they don’t get a man of their own if they want. Allah *is* fair, we must believe it and have faith that we won’t be wronged.)
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:17 ammuslim husbands that treat their spouses as secondary subjects are those who are mentally ill or of those whom cannot handle the subtlety of a woman. his ego is bigger than his private part!!!
Aziz Kaprey
May 27, 2016 - 3:17 ammuslim husbands that treat their spouses as secondary subjects are those who are mentally ill or of those whom cannot handle the subtlety of a woman. his ego is bigger than his private part!!!
Umm Abdullah
May 27, 2016 - 4:39 pmThis article didn’t fully sit right with me. Being under the guardianship of males isnt a test through and through. It is something Allah knows is best for us. It’s s huge blessing too. The way the whole article is framed makes one wonder .. well if it’s such pure misery why are men even given authority.
Umm Abdullah
May 27, 2016 - 4:39 pmThis article didn’t fully sit right with me. Being under the guardianship of males isnt a test through and through. It is something Allah knows is best for us. It’s s huge blessing too. The way the whole article is framed makes one wonder .. well if it’s such pure misery why are men even given authority.
Umm Abdullah
May 27, 2016 - 4:39 pmThis article didn’t fully sit right with me. Being under the guardianship of males isnt a test through and through. It is something Allah knows is best for us. It’s s huge blessing too. The way the whole article is framed makes one wonder .. well if it’s such pure misery why are men even given authority.
Zainab Bint Younus
May 27, 2016 - 4:43 pmIt’s not necessarily pure misery for everyone, especially if the qawwam in question is an upright guy who won’t abuse his power. But at the same time, how many woman globally can claim this? Statistics prove otherwise, unfortunately.
As for why Allah decreed qiwamah, no doubt there are deeper reasons and wisdoms… but that doesn’t mean it’s *not* a fitnah. There are plenty of circumstances in which people say, how can Allah decree XYZ when it’s so harmful? (E.g. why are some people born with painful medical conditions) Usually our answer to that is, Allah *is* Most Merciful and Most Just, but it may well be a test for us in this world, and so on.
Umm Abdullah
May 27, 2016 - 4:41 pmI don’t think the two are equal. For women who aren’t stuck with horrible mahrams what’s the equal. Being free of male authority didn’t seem equal to me. I liked br noumans answer alot. It made absolute sense. Women dont all want the same thing. So it makes sense that their reward is left open. Women are also very imaginative. Versus men are visual. So they’re told and described.
Umm Abdullah
May 27, 2016 - 4:41 pmI don’t think the two are equal. For women who aren’t stuck with horrible mahrams what’s the equal. Being free of male authority didn’t seem equal to me. I liked br noumans answer alot. It made absolute sense. Women dont all want the same thing. So it makes sense that their reward is left open. Women are also very imaginative. Versus men are visual. So they’re told and described.
Umm Abdullah
May 27, 2016 - 4:41 pmI don’t think the two are equal. For women who aren’t stuck with horrible mahrams what’s the equal. Being free of male authority didn’t seem equal to me. I liked br noumans answer alot. It made absolute sense. Women dont all want the same thing. So it makes sense that their reward is left open. Women are also very imaginative. Versus men are visual. So they’re told and described.
Olivia Kompier
May 27, 2016 - 9:37 pmAnd some men have a low sex drive so they don’t find the fitnah of women as difficult either, but in a general sense, even if a qawwam is a nice guy, the majority of scholars say a woman cant even leave her husband’s house without his permission, and globally speaking many women do experience emotional hardship living under the authority of another human being so is not a parent or blood relative and has that sense of familial, unconditional love.
Olivia Kompier
May 27, 2016 - 9:37 pmAnd some men have a low sex drive so they don’t find the fitnah of women as difficult either, but in a general sense, even if a qawwam is a nice guy, the majority of scholars say a woman cant even leave her husband’s house without his permission, and globally speaking many women do experience emotional hardship living under the authority of another human being so is not a parent or blood relative and has that sense of familial, unconditional love.
Olivia Kompier
May 27, 2016 - 9:37 pmAnd some men have a low sex drive so they don’t find the fitnah of women as difficult either, but in a general sense, even if a qawwam is a nice guy, the majority of scholars say a woman cant even leave her husband’s house without his permission, and globally speaking many women do experience emotional hardship living under the authority of another human being so is not a parent or blood relative and has that sense of familial, unconditional love.